A dose of 7aki mish fadi : Infidel

I just finished reading the book Infidel By Ayan Hirsi Ali 

This book chronicles Ayans life and gives you a glimpse in the life of some African Muslim women in Somalia, Ethiopia , Kenya and some immigrants in Holland, an eye opener to how Islam is learnt and practiced in some countries.

I don’t know what to think about this book or about the Author, in one way you sympathise with her and her cause (She is trying to stop violence and abuse against Muslim women in particular) which I agree with 100% because she was abused by her mother, circumcised (or excised) when she was 5 years old by her Grandmother and she was forced to marry a man she did not want to marry. She describes all these things with harrowing details, I never knew some of these things happened and it is heart breaking.

On the other hand I feel that she is spreading a message of hate in the west against Muslims. She is trying to educate non Muslims specifically Western Europeans and Americans to how Islam is not the religion of peace and how it spreads violence, westerners try and argue with her that all religions promote violence in a way or another like in the bible and the old testament ,to that she responds that Muslims are being allowed to do it and incorporate it in the law and they are not held accountable for some actions that are permitted in the Quran, she continues to say that it’s not only the fanatics but it is also the moderates since they do not try to stop the fanatics and they don’t condemn them.

She likes to provoke people with what she says about Islam. In my opinion by doing this she alienates the Moderate Muslims. If she was less provocative in her language I think she would have been more effective in getting her message across and she would have definitely won some of her arguments and more of the moderate Muslims.

Although I don’t like how she singles out Islam and spreads a message of hate in the west that tarnishes the image of moderate Muslims who are harmed the most by this I still think it is a good read which exposes some really bad practices in some Muslim societies against women.

Some people claim she is an opportunist and a liar and some see her as a hero, I will leave it for you to decide.

Warning: Her views might be very offensive to some.

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26 Responses

  1. Hi there, as usual been reading silently but you forced me to speak 🙂

    I agree that there are moderate people who were born as Muslims and like to call themselves Muslims, but there is no moderate Islam till this day. Those whom you call moderate Muslims based there opinions on what they like and/or on western values not on Islamic values. Islam is to be taken from its sources Quran and Sonna not from people who never study them in depth.

    Moderate Muslims are either a group of dreamers who imagine a well documented religion in a shape that matches their dreams not its reality. Or a selfish group of people who wants to live in consistency with the west and their values without having to face the (majority) of extremist in their culture and religion. Yes the majority who has been educated on extreme values that has no actual tolerance for anything.

    Islam is a religion not a race. So moderates have many choices to solve this dilemma instead of criticizing those who uncover the reality of Islam to the west, and those who lived in hell because of this idea. Not to mention those who were killed and stoned and … under its umbrella and because of it. At least as it’s understood till today.

    I can give three choices and there are others for sure.

    1) They can live quietly as Muslims without practicing it, without defending it, and without making it harder for those who risk their lives to uncover its reality.
    2) They can be braver and convert or leave.
    3) Or they work seriously and intelligently in producing another version that is moderate, the same way Christianity evolved some centuries ago.

    I think the first choice is easy and the majority of moderate Muslims are not practicing the religion anyway so just they need to learn not to get angry in the face of every criticism of Islam. The third choice definitely will happen in the future, but it needs more time and more pressure on the moderate Muslims from both the extremists and the west to force them in that productive direction. So people like the author of the book in fact helping putting such pressure in the hope that some group will step and solve this problem.

    To conclude, I have a problem with a system that discriminates between men and women, between followers and non followers, and that allows slavery as a concept even if it claims providing methods to reduce it (though it provides other methods to bring more in during wars). I have a problem with a system that punishes by stoning. And what is worse on a personal action not a killing of another or so. I have a problem with a system that executes the converts and view the humiliation of Dhemi under its rule as tolerance. I have a problem with such a system whether you call it Islam or extreme Islam or XYZ, but that is what the majority in many countries believe in, and that what matters. That is being practiced in many countries today and that what matters. Now clean that and many other problematic ideas in it and call the new one real Islam, and I have no problem with Islam any more. That is how you defend Islam not by silencing the oppressed.

    Sorry for the long message but that because I care about you and was surprised on part of your position.

  2. OMG, my comment is longer than the original post 🙂 sorry for that.

  3. Anyone who grows up in an extremist environment where backwards cultural habits are mixed with religion, will end up hating the religion and its people.

    And in that sense, it becomes easier to attack the idea and its followers.

    Islam states that a woman has to approve of a marriage, it does not prescribe circumcision, and is naturally against abuse.

    This is the same religion where a woman can divorce her husband if he doesn’t sexually satisfy her.

    In any case, Ayan’s just another hack trying to get a gig by attacking Islam.

  4. Yeah I read the book and I know what you mean. On one hand you can’t but feel deeply moved by her personal experience, but then you feel she completely insults your intelligence when she takes her personal experience and cultural background and says this is what religion is.

    I also thought she kept going back to that circumcision incident, domestic violence, and forced marriages, in an overly dramatic way…

  5. If i were I would not even touch her book, she was convicted of misrepresenting fact when she migrated to Holland ,and was stripped of here Dutch Citizenship ,right now it is the trend in the west ,if you want to sell your book ,just bash Muslims and run all the way to the bank laughing

  6. She is an opportunist and a HUGE liar. A friend of mine was a member of the parliament at the same time she was in, she was in his same party until documents surfaced that proved that she lied in just about everything. From her prosecution, to her forced marriage to just about every detail in her “struggle” and “ordeal”
    She went on attacking her own religion at a time when there was a growing anti-islam sentiment and she shot to fame when the stupid crazy director Van something was murdered by an extremest and her “Death threat” was wrapped around the knife! That’s just so dramatic

    Anyway, her cover blew in the Netherlands, and some Representatives wanted to revoke her citizenship because she lied on her application for asylum. So what does she do? She picks up and goes to the pace that is fertile grounds for Islam bashes … She joins the ranks of Wafaa Sultan in the US claiming she “suffered” from this religion!

    She used everyone’s sentiment to get where she is. The only thing that made her famous was exactly the same thing that made Salman Rushdie famous … a stupid death threat by a lunatic!

    I was so glad to have a friend who actually spent countless hours with her in the same party to give me a different twist on a bunch of stuff!

    Anyway, her lies will not fly! Anyone with couple of years Islamic education can refute every single argument she gives and with proof!

  7. What do you do when you want to sell books?You attack islam.
    If her mother was sick or father was a retard the it is not islam’s fault.

    If we want to talk about child abuse and pedophiles, I think we know where to look for it, but we don’t blame Jesus.

    She is nothing but a sicko..

  8. Fadi Malian : It is good to hear from you as always 🙂 .

    I still believe she should have used a position of non judgment which allow the men and women of these extremist societies to question their own traditions and make change as opposed to being put in a position where they would have felt the need to defend their traditions against the criticisms of others which will only cause them to practice extremism more as a defence mechanism .

    Trust me she is doing more damage than good.

    Part of her message and arguments carry weight but the execution is poor and that’s where I have an issue.

    Look for her movie submission on youtube and see how she likes to be provocative by having a naked woman with Quran written on her body praying and reading al fatiha, that my friend is pure provocation that does not sit well with Muslims who she should be trying to reach.

    You know where I stand on religion Fadi Malian since you know I am secular and don’t follow any rituals of any kind and I too have a lot of issues with a lot of things specifically women’s rights in Islam or any other religion for that matter since some rules are not fair to women but I don’t like provocation for the sake of provocation, how is Ayan enhancing Muslim women’s lives who live within an extremist society? How? She isn’t. She is causing more hatred towards Muslims in the west.

    More hate, more racism.

  9. Oh and one other thing Fadi Malian: I by no means think she should be silenced since every human has the right to speak I am disappointed with how she chooses her words since she could have been more effective if she used a different strategy.

  10. The woman doesn’t have a problem with Islam per se, but with how Islam is being practiced by the majority.

    As far as the infamous movie she made with Van Gogh goes, in the West, where she was living at the time, it is totally permissible to attack any religion. The West is strong because we’ve de-fanged religion by separating it from State. To call the director “stupid and crazy” (Qwaider) because you disagree with his movie, shows your childishness, and it also shows that even educated Muslims don’t understand the very thing that makes the West great.

  11. “Lan tarda 3anak el yahood wal na9ara 7atta tattabe3 mellatahom”
    Sadaq allaho el 3atheem.
    Those words of alla came 1400 years ago, and they can’t be more true today.

    😉

  12. fadi malian,
    You seem to watch Ann coulter and sean hannity a lot.

    Good luck!

  13. Me: Just for the sake of fairness here, she does have a problem with Islam and not only how it is practiced. She even attacks moderates and tells them you are not practicing Islam in it’s pure form and that’s why you are moderates and tells them if you do practice it right you will become violent.

  14. Muslim: I don’t know how this is relevant here.

  15. Nas: I agree with you.

    Regarding her being a hack, I always give people the benefit of the doubt but I couldn’t help but feel that Ayan has an ulterior motive to why she is doing what she is doing, a lot of inconsistencies in her story a lot of situations that would let you doubt some of what she is saying to be true, like if she was really scared, why would she go back to Nairobi and visit her parents and no body harmed her then?
    I really don’t know what to think.

    Lina: “I also thought she kept going back to that circumcision incident, domestic violence, and forced marriages, in an overly dramatic way”

    I disagree, it is dramatic and should be dramatic because it is terrible and the worst that can happen to a woman so you can’t be overly dramatic.

    Alurdunialhurr: She was stripped of her citizenship but they gave it back to her, the beauty of democracy eh?.

    Qwaider: I agree with me (not me 7aki fadi but me the commentator), this guy was killed because he insulted a religion, now THAT’s stupid and crazy.

    In regards to your friend, Isn’t it your motto Qwaider not to judge people based on other peoples opinions of them?
    He is human he might be lying too or not lying per se but maybe he does not know the truth.

    I personally am always conflicted and I don’t know who to believe.

  16. hmm i really thought she is in the US because the dutch goverment is not willing to provide her with protection and naturally the US did, and they did re institute her citizenship.
    Now what i don’t get is how we (or maybe you will be more applicable in this sense) get so provoked when someone criticizes islam, now regardless of her style (which is pure drama and inching on malice) the message she is portraying is pretty much there.
    So your bloody comeback is that “na they are extremist” or “na thats not true islam” well for fracking sake what is nowadays.
    When you have a fatwa that doesnt actually condemn female circumcision that pretty much makes it part of islam. these extremists are pretty much part of islam whether u like it or not. what position do you have to criticize another culture as backwards isn’t that like dealing the same hand that you were dealt

    Whether we like it or not all these nasty little habits rituals do exist in society and are considered pretty much a part of islam and tradition which go hand in hand (although tradition is like one of the first things islam tried to demolish)

    I find it utterly silly to issue death threats and kill people who criticize you, that is the definition of barbarism. and 7aki just for the record even if she did mellow down her tone she will still be under threat, look at all the other alternatives in egypt who are called lunes and lesbian because of what they stand for.

    I tend to disagree with 7aki malian on the three points, i think the main thing and the next thing on the evolutionary ladder for islam is learning to accept criticizing without drawing on an arsenal of weapons to settle the dispute . we’ll do that first and then worry about whatever comes next.

    oh and before i forgot, ibn 3am khal 2ommi has a red 720 bmw 2amashoo bitsha7et kafa2a aren’t i cool eh ?

  17. criticisim instead of critcizing on the 5th to last line

  18. Fadi Malian,,,Since when did you become a scholar on Islam and what are your credentials??? ,it really amazes me to See how after Sept 11 everybody suddenly became trained scholar on Islam ,it is really mind boggling.

  19. Bambam: “which is pure drama and inching on malice”
    You said it Bambam, the extremists will condemn her in any case but the moderates might listen to her if she tones down, this is my point.

    Now in regards to circumcision, just for the sake of fairness, please follow the link up there, al 2azhar actually condemned it and the Egyptian government banned it, now if they are following the rules or not is a different issue.

    I do agree with you about how Muslims like to attack anybody who criticizes them instead of having a dialogue

  20. 7aki i double checked the issue again and what i could find is that there is no fatwa banning it, instead there is a hadith supporting it.
    quoting al qardawi on the issue “the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet’s hadiths”
    tho the ministry of health in egypt did ban, so yeah the muslim scholars response was half assed at best IMHO although the mufti of lebanon did issue a fatwa against it. the egyptians still stand on the 1981 fatwa of not listening to the medical institutions and carrying on with the tradition

  21. Hey BamBam, It said it in Wikki in hte article I link to up there:

    ” in March 2005, Dr Ahmed Talib, Dean of the Faculty of Sharia at the Al-Azhar University, stated: “All practices of female circumcision and mutilation are crimes and have no relationship with Islam. Whether it involves the removal of the skin or the cutting of the flesh of the female genital organs… it is not an obligation in Islam.[30] Both Christian and Muslim leaders have publicly denounced the practice of FGC since 1998”

    Now if anybody is listening to the Azhar or the government is a different thing.

  22. look 7aki, you know how it goes for muslims. if there isn’t a fatwa it doesn’t matter what anyone says about it.
    For the sunnis there isn’t a fatwa against it (a look across several forums will make u realize how support for it is so popular) it really doesn’t matter what anyone publicly say about it.
    So what they did is publicly denounce just for the sake of being PC, but they didnt issue any fatwas after 1989 regarding the issue and the wiki entry doesn’t contradict that.
    now on the other hand Shiites do have a fatwa against it .
    hell even the egyptian health ministry law got appealed by الشيخ يوسف بدري , after all the only reason the west african nations don’t practice FGM and egyptians for instance do is because egyptians got bigger genitalia (i kid you not he issued a fatwa saying that !) 😛

    but why am i arguing about this with u ! i already know we are on the same side regarding this issue atleast. maybe its because ur making them come off as more benign on this issue than they really are.

    i was over myself and i didn’t wish u a happy eid yet, my bad 7aki, inshallah yin3ad 3aleiki 2o 3alla kol 2illi bit7ibihom bil khair 2o titraba lil 7aki bi 3izkom 😀

  23. Bambam: I agree with your last comment in it’s entirety becaus they should play a bigger role and they are not.

    About the fatwa to why west Africans don’t do it, lol, are you kidding me ???? And Alazhar just let it fly? Kinda reminds me of the breast feeding scandal.

    Stupidity is runnig rampant wallah.

    Anyhooo have a happy Eid too Bambam!

  24. I never read any of ayan’s books but the first I ever heard of her was an interview of her in Glamour magazine, or maybe it was cosmopolitan I can’t remember this was at least a year ago, and I remember she said some pretty extreme things. She pretty much blames islam as a religion for the state for extremism and made statements like Islam is beyond repair. To me I just can’t help but think that someone as intelligent as her that says such unintelligent and unintellectual things has some kind of agenda or not-so-obvious motive. Maybe she’s out for some kind of fame or attention, I wouldn’t put it past her because if you’re that intelligent you would be able to differentiate between the essence of the Islam and whatever culturalexperience she’s associating Islam with.

    Also I thought it was weird that a good bit of the interview/biography about her talked about her expensive taste in clothes and fashion and how her closet was full of designer brands, which just adds to my suspicions.

  25. The “Scholarship” of Hirsi Ali. “So I had already decided I didn’t want to run for elections, and wanted instead to go back to being a scholar. Cynthia Schneider, who was then the U.S. ambassador to the Netherlands, said she’d be delighted to take me around in the United States and introduce me—to the Brookings Institution, the Johns Hopkins Institute, Georgetown University, the RAND Corporation. I balked at paying a visit to the American Enterprise Institute, though.
    Reason: Why the initial aversion?
    Hirsi Ali: Because I thought they would be religious, and I had become an atheist. And I don’t consider myself a conservative. I consider myself a classical liberal. Anyway, the Brookings Institution did not react. Johns Hopkins said they didn’t have enough money. The RAND Corporation wants its people to spend their days and nights in libraries figuring out statistics, and I’m very bad at statistics. But at AEI they were enthusiastic. It turns out that I have complete freedom of thought, freedom of expression. No one here imposed their religion on me, and I don’t impose my atheism on them.
    Reason: Do you see eye to eye with high-profile AEI hawks such as former Bush speechwriter David Frum and former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton?
    Hirsi Ali: Most of the time I do. For instance, I completely and utterly agree with John Bolton that talking to Iran is a sheer waste of time.”
    And here, she shares the results of her research and “scholarship”:

    “Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.
    Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?
    Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.
    Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?
    Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.
    Reason: Militarily?
    Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.”
    Can you imagine the uproar if somebody, anybody, in the West spoke about “defeating” Judaism, for example?

  26. This is too much to take in at 8 AM

    I wouldn’t like to comment on the topic because I am not a certified mufti to talk about Islam and the rights and wrongs of the world.

    What I can say though is that any anti-something book can be politically or financially backed up. Regardless, people should read things on sensitive issue with an open but cautious mind and not just believe everything they read right off the bat, like a particular person I know who converted to atheism simply because a book told him religion is ridiculous.

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